SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

HCL Domino Domino Forum
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We have used “dnsbl.sorbs.net” as one of 5 DNS Blacklists for about two years now, with good results.

Recently we have had an increasing number of accounts (that we legitimately deal with) blocked by SORBS. One account contacted them and was told that their site could be removed - for $50.

The paragraph below is from SORBS site: http://www.us.sorbs.net/overview.shtml

Delisting. If the size of the listing is anything more than a single IP address, delisting can only take place when the spammer is no longer using the address space, in which case the size of the listing will be reduced down to the originally spamming IP addresses free of charge. The affected IPs (the ones used to send the spam) will only be delisted when US$50 is donated to a SORBS nominated charity or good cause. The charities and good causes SORBS approves will not have any connection with any member of the SORBS administrators, either past or present.

Has anyone else had any experiences like this concerning SORBS?

Has anyone heard of the $50 charge to be removed?

Some people here think this is electronic blackmail and we should stop using SORBS.

Any experiences or comments would be appreciated.

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Subject: SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

Well, of course you should stop using SORBS if you don’t like the policy associated with the use of this free service, just like you shouldn’t use any DNSBL whose policies and practices don’t match your business needs.

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Subject: SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

All these blacklists do a fabulous job (etc, etc, etc). I’ve always found it though just a bit shuddery that they set their own rules, and have no accountability to anyone. But no one else seems to mind, so I’ve never said anything.

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Subject: SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

I don’t use that particular DNSBL, but it certainly sounds like blackmail to me. Now I’ll be sure I never use them and advise anyone who asks of this heinous practice. Thanks for the heads up.

– Charles

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Subject: SORBS - Guaranteed False positives.

After several conversations with SORBS people the following has been determined.1. Perhaps because they are volunteers, but actually discussing their tactics with a person is near impossible.

  1. SORBS GUARANTEES false positives.

And SORBS guarantees them at a much higher rate than other DNSBL’s.

Not only is this supported by SORBS tactics - but we have experienced it on our network.

We have seen about a 10-1 rate for SORBS false positives compared to all other DNSBL’s combined.

A representative told me that SORBS with Block an IP address, then a range (if they keep getting SPAM) and then a larger Range, etc. I personally have had companies return my Yahoo! and Optonline mail because of SORBS.

I had mail rejected because someone using my ISP sent SPAM to SORBS.

We had a case where a small business (one man graphics shop) was being blocked because his ISP did not follow up with SORBS. This went on for more than a week. This directly affected the business of a non-spammer.

The above would also seem to guarantee that ISP’s run into the $50 charge - er, charity donation.

As I see it this will only slow down the process of delisting and guarantee that SORBS continues to block more false positives.

From the SORBS website.

http://www.us.sorbs.net/overview.shtml

=============================

Listing is manual and is performed when any spam is received at a SORBS spamtrap. SORBS spamtraps include, but are not limited to, the private email addresses of the SORBS admins. On occasion, when a particular network is seen to be spamming and the listing of a single IP address seems to have no effect, increasingly larger sections of the netblock will be listed. If spamming continues, the size of the listing will be slowly expanded (depending on the number of spams received) until something is done about the spammer.

Delisting. If the size of the listing is anything more than a single IP address, delisting can only take place when the spammer is no longer using the address space, in which case the size of the listing will be reduced down to the originally spamming IP addresses free of charge. The affected IPs (the ones used to send the spam) will only be delisted when US$50 is donated to a SORBS nominated charity or good cause. The charities and good causes SORBS approves will not have any connection with any member of the SORBS administrators, either past or present.

=============================

Snips from an email conversation with SORBS.

SORBS Replies are without the “>”

If this is an example of customer service at SORBS - it is no wonder SORBS is getting a bad reputation.

SORBS has no customers.

If Yahoo is not concerned about the listing, neither is SORBS.

(comment: this makes sure the problem drags on an generates more false positives)

ISP’s ignoring SORBS listings is not grounds for removal.

SORBS lists any IP that sends spam to SORBS.

This is a dis-service.

No, it is a service.

Replies to this ticket will not be seen.

Thank you,

                    payments@sorbs.net
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Subject: SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

Why does this smell like a phish to me?

Where’s Linfoot?

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Subject: SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

I’m here Nathan. Better late than never.

No, it’s not blackmail.

SORBS will list servers that send spam to its traps and these servers must either be owned by spammers or explotable because they haven’t been properly secured. The $50 (Australian dollars) fee is meant to incentivise administrators of exploted systems to RTFM before connecting anything else to the Internet. Proceeds are donated to charity.

We use SORBS to block here and I’m not stopping no matter how many Exchange admins manage to install malware on their unpatched systems.

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Subject: RE: SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

While I may agree with you there are some people here that see it as blackmail.

It may be a noble intent to donate to charity I think is creating at least the appearence of a conflict. Face it, SORBS can put you on a list and then charge you to get off of it. Charging for DNS zone transfers and other services is fine, however I think SORBS should reconsider their policy and not charge to be removed from their list.

We use SORBS here and it is our #1 list, but some execs have become aware of it because people sending to them have ended up on it.

None of them have been blatent SPAMMERS. One guy was a small design studio in the UK - who used an ISP that had their host end up on the list.

We also use SPAMCOP and SPAMHAUS - neither of which charge to be removed from their lists.

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Subject: RE: SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

If you’re on Domino 7, you can use the whitelist feature to make sure those customers aren’t blocked on your end no matter what SORBS’ policy is. The remainder of the issue is your customers’ problem. That’s a little harsh, perhaps, but SORBS does not have a reputation for listing sites without legitimate reason.

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Subject: RE: SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

Thanks for the suggestion, I have whitelisted several senders.However this issue is not so much about a specific sender or even one specific blocking issue.

If SORBS, as you suggest, has a reputation for putting people on a Blacklist for no particular reason and they are the only blacklist to charge (under certain circumstances) to be removed it can, and does, appear as blackmail to some people. This is not good for SORBS or the whole DNSBL community.

IMO SORBS should drop their charge - whether it is donated to charity or not.

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Subject: RE: SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

Sorry… I used a double negative. SORBS reputation is the opposite. When they put someone on their list, there is generally a good reason. I don’t like their policy – but running those blacklist sites has got to be a costly endeavor, so I’m not going to fault them for it.

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Subject: RE: SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

And I agree with Rich. SORBS does not list for no good reason - i.e. they do list for good reasons.

SORBS also only charges for removal from (I think) one of its DNSBL zones, the spamtrap zone. This is the one that is fed by actual spam hitting spamtraps and hosts listed there have verifiably sent spam either because spammers own them or more usually because they are being operated by someone unqualified to connect anything to the public Internet. People who want to remain unlisted at SORBS and similar places would be better advised to RTFM than to complain about the consequences of their own mistakes.

In any case, this forum may not be the best place to complain about SORBS - you could try complaining directly but don’t imagine you’re the first and don’t expect a helpful response either.

If you don’t like SORBS’ listing policy, don’t use it. Just expect a big increase in spam as a result of not using it.

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Subject: SORBS - Electronic Blackmail?

I’ll continue to use it because it is effective and if one of my customers or partners gets blacklisted, I’ll whitelist them and move on with life. You can bet I won’t get blacklisted.