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I am continually amazed that Lotus can stay in business when they field garbage like this. I can see why people would use MickeySawft instead of R6 Designer. Astoundingly, it’s even worse than R5 Designer, a poster child for how NOT to implement an IDE if ever one existed. Worse than the bottom of the barrel is an accomplishment, of sorts. Hats off to Lotus!- Something right with this POS is that a setting exists in the .ini file to prevent that fragging Properties box from popping open all the freaking time. I don’t know what crack head came up with that ever-increasing pop-up annoyance, but at least it can be turned off so it (rightly) appears ONLY when explicitly invoked.
-
That’s about where the positive stuff ends. While on the subjact of that fragging Properties box, IT has several very bad “improvments”. First, it’s about the size of Texas now. On a 1400x1050 display, one of the Database tabs consumes nearly a SIXTH of the WHOLE SCREEN. WHAT??? Its proportions make it more of an unwanted intrusion than an useful tool. Put ALL of that crap on the menu bar and GET RID OF THE POP-UP. Or AT LEAST give it a setting so it is NOT ALWAYS ON TOP OF EVERYTHING.
-
Some coke-sniffer also made the Properties box open to the “Programmer’s Pane” by default for Agents, so developers get to move the mouse over to that pop-up travesty and click a tab to get where they really want to be. It’ll be a cold day in hades before that’s fixed, I’m sure.
-
Speaking of a cold day in hades, R4 used to REMEMBER where everything was. Windows and all sorts of things were “sticky”, and re-opened where they were last closed. Since R5 this has been missing, and in R6 the default placement for new windows is ON TOP OF THE CLIENT. What??? Someone’s been sniffing too much glue at Lotus … EVERY OTHER IDE I USE has this “sticky” function, so things remain where I left them, and where I expect them to be the next time they are opened. Apparently Lotus is “too good” for that sort of thing, except for that fragging Properties box, which thankfully does stay put.
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Speaking of mistakes that have been around as long as R5, when I have Java code opened and I go to reference tab, it DOES NOT SCROLL. LotusScript reference navigation has a handy horizontal scroll bar at the bottom, so if I open an object reference to expose methods, and they happen to be wider than the current frame, it just adds that scroll bar so I can see what’s missing. Not so with Java. I’m just screwed. Sure, I can RESIZE EVERYTHING to accomodate the reference information, but since Java has a LOT more heirarchy to it than LotusScript, I wind up with a reference frame that is OVER HALF THE WIDTH OF THE DESIGNER WINDOW, and MOST OF THAT IS WASTED BLANK SPACE. Come on, Lotus, it’s awesome to have a Java help browser, but PUT IN A FREAKING SCROLL BAR.
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Then there’s the “new” bookmark/naviation bull with the “improved” list-thingy. You know the one that keeps opening “for” you, EACH and EVERY TIME a whole range of design elemnts are opened or saved? That POS does NOTHING except WASTE SPACE. Who has only five Agents in a database, or WANTS to see all thirty of them, five at a time? I’d kill for a way to turn that vaginal stain off.
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And they added a pathetically moronic MODAL dialog to tell me that debugging has been enabled. It better be, I JUST TURNED IT ON. What ELSE would it be doing? If developers are too retarded to see there’s no checkmark next to “Debug LotusScript” when they CLICK ON IT, then perhaps they need a new career.
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Ahhh, the debugger. This thing gets worse each release, as new “features” are added. For instance, when looking at an element of an user defined class that contains an user defined class, the Variables list is painted incorrectly, so everything beyond a certain point is just a big blank space. Nice. I didn’t REALLY need to see those values, anyway. It’s not like I’m DEBUGGING or anything like that.
-
Then some ignorant anal discharge changed the debugger so the next statement is ALWAYS AT THE BOTTOM of the source window. Used to be I could scroll so a short loop would be entirely in the source window, and step through it. The active statement highlight would move accordingly, but the source window would not scroll until the active statement left that area. NOW it SCROLLS EACH STATEMENT EXECUTED so the current statement is at the VERY BOTTOM of the source window. I am almost NEVER interested in seeing the code I just executed, which is what this shows me. I’m VERY OFTEN interested in UPCOMING CODE so I know if I should STEP INTO A FUNCTION. It’s MUCH FASTER when I can SEE THE FUNCTION CALL BEFORE I GET TO IT. I can’t BELIEVE this made it out the door. Q/A must be on exctasy 24/7. Or Lotus just fired the lot of them to save money because their crappy product is losing market share.
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This tells me that Lotus doesn’t give a rat’s posterior about how developer-friendly their IDE is, as long as it doesn’t crash. Which early releases of R5 did, VERY FREQUENTLY. I can safely say that R6 Designer hasn’t crashed on me yet, but WHO CARES?? I’m back to using R5 because it’s LESS PATHETIC. That’s not saying much.
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If R6 hadn’t RAPED MY MAILBOX on upgrade, so it’s IMPOSSIBLE to go back, I’d DELETE THIS WORTHLESS PIECE OF CRAP. But I’m STUCK with it, now.
-
THANKS LOTUS.
Subject: Wanker
Subject: *Dear Mr. Pink Floyd@ee.doe.gov: Why don’t you take a deep breath, assume the Lotus position, howl at the dark side of the moon and then post how you really feel?
Subject: and a cold day in hades it well could be…
As Mr. Poole indicates, you are welcome to share your thoughts on product deficiencies and opportunities for improvement here. However, it might be more influential if you didn’t insult the people who would have to make the changes you are requesting in the process.I heard a story of someone who lost their job when they posted public comments like this on LDD. Actually, it’s not just a story, it actually happened. That’s not a threat – I don’t really care who you are or why you ranted like this – but just think about the readership of this discussion forum before you jump off the deep end again.
–Ed/IBM Lotus
Subject: R6 Designer is a piece of crap
I am really fearfull of losing my sanity! I currently develop in R5 and find it the absolute worst development environment of the many, many types I have ever used. To read statements such as this, stating that the 6.5 environment is even worse, makes me want to cry! I have never been as frustrated in anything else I have ever done, including moving house 3 times in 2 years, as I am when trying to develop in Lotus Notes. I have never had to reboot my machine so often in my life. If I put out applications like this I would fully expect to be sacked. The sheer lack of QA is absolutely mind blowing. There are so many basic things wrong with the system it is truly shocking. If I am really honest I have felt even worse than David Gilmore. My vocabulary of expletives increases exponentialy with each day I work with Lotus Notes. I cannot believe, that after all this time, Lotus still put out a product as bad as this. Perhaps what it really needs is for more people with the courage of David Gilmore (great name - how did you enjoy Live8) to rant and rave like he has. Needless to say developers do not choose this as a development environment. It is a senior management decision to buy in Lotus Notes and all that goes with it. I am waiting for the day when costings are done to compare Lotus Notes development time and maintenance against other products. I think that when this happens the bells will start to toll for IBM.
Subject: RE: R6 Designer is a piece of crap
Thank you for that thoughtful and insightful post. We are all truly enriched by your sharing. And I’m certain that IBM’s team will immediately take your valuable observations to heart, and we’ll see a complete transformation of Designer within the next two months. After all, you’ve provided everyone here with such remarkable detail on exactly what needs to be done, how could IBM set any other priorities than to immediately address your urgent customer needs.
Truly, I wonder what we all did before you, Phil.
Subject: R6 Designer is working fine
My experience with R6.5 has been very different from yours!
First of all, Designer itself almost never has crashed, and the PC has never crashed due to Designer. Possibly you are not using Windows XP? Or your machine is underpowered? Or you are running something else that is buggy? R4 was another matter, but that was long ago, when PCs generally had too little RAM.
Notes development can be frustrating for the first few years. It has a complete feature set that is unlike any other environment I know of (“Clarify” came close) because it includes authentication, encryption, UI, access control, IDE, replication, search, application server, e-mail, web server, VB interpreter, rich-text, Java, and I am sure I am missing a lot more. Yes, Virginia, there is a learning curve for all this! And yes, trhere are complex interactions of features - but it’s easier within one product than when the interactions occur between separate products.
Also, for a long time it was unclear (to me) exactly which events would happen exactly when, and, what the condtions would be when a given formula or script runs. IMO this still is not fully and clearly documented, but good info is on this forum.
Regarding programmers and senior management, my experience has been the opposite. MS keeps convincing managements that their hodgepodge of products - SQL Server, Sharepoint, IIS, Visual Studio, Active Directory, etc etc will simplify development (as long as you give up on using systems other than Windows of course). Years later, as new releases of MS junk keep obsoleting the new code before it can reach Production, it can be seen what a marvel Notes/Domino really is.
My observations on cost are also the opposite of yours. Many small shops have one or two people supporting dozens of Domino apps, and writing new ones at the same time, and administering the e-mail and the webserver as well. Two people could never do the same thing with an assortment of MS products. The patches and foced upgrades (as one product is released, the others all need upgrades too sooner or later) alone would kill you.
And then there is backward compatibility - not perfect in Notes/Domino, but worlds ahead of MS products. Big cost factor in the long run.
At my current site, there are more people trying to use Cognos to add some reporting functions, than were ever in the entire Notes staff! And there are dozens of complex Notes apps working quite well here. No admins are dedicated to Notes; they probably spend one man-year per year on admin.
And then there is security and viruses. BIG cost factor.
And then there is the openness of interfaces. For instance, the Notes COM objects are fully documented in each release. Not so for Excel - nothing about Excel COM objects in the Excel Help - I did find documentation of COM for Excel '97 on the MS website!
And then there is cross-platform support.
And then there is this forum! There’s nothing like it at microsoft.com .
Subject: Good points, badly expressed (WAS: R6 Designer is a piece of crap)
Not had a good day then? But seriously, being so harsh to those hard-working souls at Lotus doesn’t help your case, however valid some of your points.
–
Subject: 100% agreed
Subject: RE: Good points, badly expressed (WAS: R6 Designer is a piece of crap)
Now I know I’m answering an over 2 years old message, but I just can’t get over this.
Notes UI sports an uncredibly long list of brain-damaged UI designs.
It’s probably the most awarded product ever in this category.
Now… WTF would it HAVE to be this way ?!?
There is no excuse for keeping the same stupid bits of code alive 10 YEARS LATER!
And guess what: there is no way the ugly caterpillar will ever evolve in a butterfly by itself.
Senior managers at IBM really NEED to realize how much of a handicap Notes has to support here, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT !
Subject: R6 Designer is a piece of crap
-
I apologize for spazzing; this seems to happen about once a year or so … my frustration level with Designer “features” peaks at “Straight To Plaid” and things go downhill from there. Sad, but true.- Despite my inappropriate implementation, it is pretty amazing some of the “features” that are in R6 Designer. And it is true that I’m not using it any longer because of those “features”; R5 Designer is just better, probably because Lotus has spent 12 revision cycles (i’m using 5.0.12) tweaking “features” out of it.
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And it is true that someone at IBM/Lotus is aware of those R6 “features” now, in case they weren’t before. There doesn’t appear to be any satisfying method of delivering product feedback (i know about the “e-mail ibm” and the automated “thank you” response that never indicates if a real person has ever seen it), and more importantly bug reports. At least one of the items I mentioned above is quite definitely a bug. Now IBM/Lotus is aware of that bug, and I know that for certain, because Ed responded. Ed is also aware of some of Designer’s developer hostile “features”, and that other developers agree that they are in fact undesirable. What Ed does with that information, as a bona-fide representative of IBM/Lotus, is his decision.
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True, those same developers, and Ed, rightly admonished me for my blatantly rude, borderline profane delivery. I’m first to agree I SHOULD have posted that differently. But it still got my point across directly to IBM/Lotus, with confirmed receipt, and that’s the real mission.
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Any consequences deriving from my execution of that mission are mine alone. Again I apologize for how badly I handled that execution…
Subject: Classic rant - more needed
I shall revisit this post whenever I’m having a particularly bad day at the coding coal-face using the sharpened flint tool that is the Notes IDE.
Subject: RE: Classic rant - more needed
- No carbon steel for you, Notes Boy! (wink)
Subject: RE: R6 Designer is a piece of gold
“- I am continually amazed that Lotus can stay in business when they field garbage like this. I can see why people would use MickeySawft instead of R6 Designer. Astoundingly, it’s even worse than R5 Designer, a poster child for how NOT to implement an IDE if ever one existed. Worse than the bottom of the barrel is an accomplishment, of sorts. Hats off to Lotus!”
I am using R7 Beta4 designer, MS Visual Studio 6, MS Visual Studio .NET 2003 and MS Visual Studio .NET 2005 Beta. They are all wonderful products, each has it’s own purpose for which they are the best.
“- Something right with this POS is that a setting exists in the .ini file to prevent that fragging Properties box from popping open all the freaking time. I don’t know what crack head came up with that ever-increasing pop-up annoyance, but at least it can be turned off so it (rightly) appears ONLY when explicitly invoked.”
I agree that the Properties Box popping was quite quite annoying until I got used to it, and Lotus said as reason that most newbies could not find the properties box, so they decided in most cases it’s better to pop it up. A notes.ini option to turn it off would be sure a good idea.
“- That’s about where the positive stuff ends. While on the subjact of that fragging Properties box, IT has several very bad “improvments”. First, it’s about the size of Texas now. On a 1400x1050 display, one of the Database tabs consumes nearly a SIXTH of the WHOLE SCREEN. WHAT??? Its proportions make it more of an unwanted intrusion than an useful tool. Put ALL of that crap on the menu bar and GET RID OF THE POP-UP. Or AT LEAST give it a setting so it is NOT ALWAYS ON TOP OF EVERYTHING.”
I think the size of the properties box is as small as it could be. There’s lots of stuff in it, and it would be hard to read if it was squeezed up more.
“- Some coke-sniffer also made the Properties box open to the “Programmer’s Pane” by default for Agents, so developers get to move the mouse over to that pop-up travesty and click a tab to get where they really want to be. It’ll be a cold day in hades before that’s fixed, I’m sure.”
You know, if you are are working and testing an agent, you can just open it once, close the properties box and press Ctrl-S to save every code change between each test.
“- Speaking of a cold day in hades, R4 used to REMEMBER where everything was. Windows and all sorts of things were “sticky”, and re-opened where they were last closed. Since R5 this has been missing, and in R6 the default placement for new windows is ON TOP OF THE CLIENT. What??? Someone’s been sniffing too much glue at Lotus … EVERY OTHER IDE I USE has this “sticky” function, so things remain where I left them, and where I expect them to be the next time they are opened. Apparently Lotus is “too good” for that sort of thing, except for that fragging Properties box, which thankfully does stay put.”
I don’t quite understand how the windows in designer could be sticky, I mean they open all right of the “Recent Databases” pane, and I wouldn’t want them to open anywhere else.
“- Speaking of mistakes that have been around as long as R5, when I have Java code opened and I go to reference tab, it DOES NOT SCROLL. LotusScript reference navigation has a handy horizontal scroll bar at the bottom, so if I open an object reference to expose methods, and they happen to be wider than the current frame, it just adds that scroll bar so I can see what’s missing. Not so with Java. I’m just screwed. Sure, I can RESIZE EVERYTHING to accomodate the reference information, but since Java has a LOT more heirarchy to it than LotusScript, I wind up with a reference frame that is OVER HALF THE WIDTH OF THE DESIGNER WINDOW, and MOST OF THAT IS WASTED BLANK SPACE. Come on, Lotus, it’s awesome to have a Java help browser, but PUT IN A FREAKING SCROLL BAR.”
The horizontal scroll bar is indeed missing, but I’ve never needed Java and probably never will. LotusScript/C++ is all you need, and Java is just crap. It’s slow, it the JVM engine takes up too much memory, and it crashes all the time.
“- Then there’s the “new” bookmark/naviation bull with the “improved” list-thingy. You know the one that keeps opening “for” you, EACH and EVERY TIME a whole range of design elemnts are opened or saved? That POS does NOTHING except WASTE SPACE. Who has only five Agents in a database, or WANTS to see all thirty of them, five at a time? I’d kill for a way to turn that vaginal stain off.”
I agree the quick open feature of design documents in the Recent Database bar is just annoying, I never use it, and I always have to waste time to close the lists. A notes.ini parameter to turn this feature off would be also very useful.
“- And they added a pathetically moronic MODAL dialog to tell me that debugging has been enabled. It better be, I JUST TURNED IT ON. What ELSE would it be doing? If developers are too retarded to see there’s no checkmark next to “Debug LotusScript” when they CLICK ON IT, then perhaps they need a new career.”
Good point, another thing to be a parameter in the notes.ini to turn it off.
“- Ahhh, the debugger. This thing gets worse each release, as new “features” are added. For instance, when looking at an element of an user defined class that contains an user defined class, the Variables list is painted incorrectly, so everything beyond a certain point is just a big blank space. Nice. I didn’t REALLY need to see those values, anyway. It’s not like I’m DEBUGGING or anything like that.”
Also strings with special characters like chr(0) and chr(9) are displayed quite buggy. Something to fix for Lotus.
“- Then some ignorant anal discharge changed the debugger so the next statement is ALWAYS AT THE BOTTOM of the source window. Used to be I could scroll so a short loop would be entirely in the source window, and step through it. The active statement highlight would move accordingly, but the source window would not scroll until the active statement left that area. NOW it SCROLLS EACH STATEMENT EXECUTED so the current statement is at the VERY BOTTOM of the source window. I am almost NEVER interested in seeing the code I just executed, which is what this shows me. I’m VERY OFTEN interested in UPCOMING CODE so I know if I should STEP INTO A FUNCTION. It’s MUCH FASTER when I can SEE THE FUNCTION CALL BEFORE I GET TO IT. I can’t BELIEVE this made it out the door. Q/A must be on exctasy 24/7. Or Lotus just fired the lot of them to save money because their crappy product is losing market share.”
I guess there’s too much different opinions on this, but I don’t personally have any problems with the scrolling execution line. Another notes.ini parameter perhaps to suit all kinds of different developers.
“- This tells me that Lotus doesn’t give a rat’s posterior about how developer-friendly their IDE is, as long as it doesn’t crash. Which early releases of R5 did, VERY FREQUENTLY. I can safely say that R6 Designer hasn’t crashed on me yet, but WHO CARES?? I’m back to using R5 because it’s LESS PATHETIC. That’s not saying much.”
I think they are trying to make it more user friendly for newbies, but I agree they should make it more time effective for professional developers. Just have notes.ini parameters to suit both groups of users.
"- If R6 hadn’t RAPED MY MAILBOX on upgrade, so it’s IMPOSSIBLE to go back, I’d DELETE THIS WORTHLESS PIECE OF CRAP. But I’m STUCK with it, now.
- THANKS LOTUS."
The Mailbox is just an example how to make a mailbox application, most people want to customize it anyway, so they have also a template for it, and you will never lose your design changes.
Recap:
Domino Designer (including R7 Beta4) has still the same bugs as it had in early R5/R6, and many people are aware of them, I hope Lotus too.
Lotus is trying to make Domino Designer more user friendly for new users, but at the same time they are making it user friendly for professional users. In my opinion a notes.ini paramater (multiple, and also just one for all), to switch Domino Designer to “Advanced” mode would be the best solution.
While David’s writing style is quite rough, I think it’s also in the human nature that if you are upset about something and it matters a lot to you, you instinctively choose rough words to express your dedication into this.
Most people will however go in defensive mode when they encounter such rough writing style, and you might not even get your message public.
I would recommend to maintain a friendly and polite writing style at all times, so that it doesn’t offend people and they are willing to read your message objectively.
Subject: So How Do I Turn Off the Properties Popup?
David,
You made me laugh. I hate that properties box always popping up! But you could have been more helpful by telling us how to turn it off. If there is a setting in notes.ini, I don’t know what it is.
Ken
Subject: DesignNoInitialInfobox=1 in notes.ini
Subject: R6 Designer is a piece of crap
David,
Consider this possible scenario unfolding:
"Dear DOE Inspector General,
I cannot believe that a government employee, David Gilmore (email address is …) has taken my tax dollars and posted this vitriolic post AND included his email address (which on one hand should be commended for brassiness of his shiny thingies).
I am wondering if this should be considered the official view of the Department of Energy, its contractors, or the United States Government? In addition, would this fall under the category of Fraud, Waste and Abuse, with misuse of Government Assets included?
Sincerely,
Joe Taxpayer"
As a former Contracting Officer in the Federal Government, I can and will tell you if that such a complaint were actually filed, your tenure as an employee of your company would be very short lived. If you are one of the DOE rarities and are actually a Federal Employee, your live would become miserable dealing with responses to the DOE (as this would not fall under “whistle blower” status and afford you any protections).
We all have our qualms with the development products of different vendors. I personally choose not to get overly upset because at least I have a true IDE, as opposed to what other vendors try to sell as an IDE.
Just my two cents gained from over 12 years of having worked in the Federal Bureaucracy (and I do not miss it, mainly because of having to deal with issues, inspector general investifations and congressional inquiries that arose from things such as what you have done).
Next time, think before you hit submit. Type it, then wait 24 hours, and then post.
And finally, it is ND6, not R6.
Peace.
Subject: I thought DOE was going to Exchange - EOM