Notes 8.51 is Junk

HCL Domino Domino Forum
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I am sorry if that title offended you, but I ultimately felt compelled to say something. And I never much participate in forums since the old-school partner forum way back when you could literally hear replication taking place. But here is the vent…

First, I think the concept of Lotus Notes is magical.The breadth of apps that can be constructed are incredible, as you all know. I have been using and designing Notes apps since R3 Beta. That’s about 16 or so years. It is my only platform that I have really ever developed on, and I used to REALLY love it. And I admit that I am a foot-dragger, not an early adopter, not a bloody edge surfer like many of you. But …

But the wonderfully elegant, reliable, stable, rock solid platform seems to have devolved, even while it all appears to be “bigger and better”. The love I had for Notes has vanished with this release. The designer feels heavy, overengineered, sluggish, ugly and crashes way too frequently. The whole eclipse idea, to me, was a huge collosal waste of re-write. Lookups using script (GetDocumentByKey, etc) are unreliable and unstable. That is insane! That is totally unacceptable. Transaction apps like invoicing and order fulfillment, etc. fail siltenly. Oops! NotesViewEntry.Document is intermittantly buggy (sometimes loses its .Document), Script editor malfunctions like simple cut/paste erases my code, I get recurring memory leaks, Script Classes and Agents sometimes allow undeclared variables even when I explicitly put Option Declare! etc, etc yada yada yada.

There are other issues that in my current frustrated state I can’t recall. The main point for me is that I can’t trust the system like I used to.

When data lookups LIE to me, I lose faith.

Software with a version number as high as 8 are supposed to be solid and build on the the strong foundation of the past, not rewrite or re-engineer it and break the core. There was nothing wrong that needed to be re-done to the point of failure.

The “founding fathers” like Ray Ozzie would probably spew if they tried to use it today. I don’t know, maybe I am a minority and am the only one that believes that Lotus has lost grip of the firehose. I could be.

I know there are many people that help to design and develop the program, and I respect the hard work. But the overall result is depressing to me.

Okay, feel free to put me on mute. I just had say something.

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Subject: re the lookups problem

Hi Richard. I remember you well from the early partner forum days. There’s a technote for the problem with lookups. http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=swg21424178 It has been talked about on the blogs a fair amount. This article on my blog has links to some of the first postings that went out about it. http://www.rhs.com/web/blog/PowerOfTheSchwartz.nsf/d6plinks/RSCZ-84356H The back story appears to be that they fixed a rare and fairly obscure bug in lookups that could cause them to hang, but the fix was worse than the disease. By the way: it’s not limited to 8.5.1. The bug made its way into maintenance releases for several earlier versions :frowning:

IBM is still working on the fix. They had issued a hotfix, but it caused a regression, so they pulled it back. After that happened, you can imagine that they are being very cautious about issuing a new fix before they are sure they have it fixed. Open a PMR with them to get yourself on the list for when the new hotfix is finally available.

Bugs happen. This is a bad one in a core function that we’ve trusted for a long time. But I still give them credit for the overall reliability and compataiility record over the past 17+ years that you and I have been working with this technology.

-rich

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Subject: Thanks!

Hey Rich, good to hear from you. Thanks for the information about the bug. I know bugs happen. But I can’t recall, in all my years of Notes dev, any instances when Notes would lie to me about data. Until using this release. Look at what Iris did with their budget. Look at where we are now. Maybe I am comparing apples and oranges. Anyway, thanks! I bookmarked your links.

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Subject: Notes good and bad

I agree. The GREAT things about Notes and Domino are often offset by the negative aspects. We’re upgrading to 8.5 from 6/6.5 and the Standard client is too much for many of the PC’s. A decision was made to give 90% of the company the Basic client. Seems a shame. I’ve done a couple of installs/upgardes and they take a LONG time. It is a big effort to upgrade a client, especially in a big company.

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Subject: I remember a few more things…

I forgot to mention view indexes getting corrupted frequently where you have to cut and paste the view to get it to look right. Columns that show results from other column’s formulas, agents that you can’t edit until you reboot, full text search on words with underscores intermittently failing… minor sfuff :wink:

Somebody made a great distinction in a post a few down from mine. Notes is a great application platform. As long as we can ge the code written without relying on anxiety meds.

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Subject: about 8.5 Designer I agree

I have taken to doing all my development in R8, and only when it’s close to finished, I simply recompile/save in R8.5 designer.

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Subject: Re: about 8.5 Designer I agree

Heh, so much for Rapid Application Development.

I personally won’t be developing XPages in the near future. “Classic” Domino Web apps with jQuery and some plugins cover perfectly my current Web 2.0 needs - I wouldn’t be touching Dojo with a barge pole.

I really miss a Designer client that’s fast and reliable.

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Subject: It’s all about XPages

I don’t really understand why, but it’s now all about XPages. Just ask the frothing fanatics on the edge. You’ll get slammed if you try to explain that the so-called “classic” Notes dev does all you want it to do. Or used to anyway. I have posted before that I used to love Notes dev, but now it makes me sad. I hate trying to work with the new Designer, and if I’m forced to learn a new techology with a steep learning curve it is probably going to be something much more mainstream.

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Subject: Me too…

and I´m not a dev but in charge of a group of admins and have been using Notes8 for quite a while.Sure it looks good and the ability to hook in variuos things is nice, but the stability is long gone.

Makes me wonder what will happen when we roll out the client to the masses…

All this java-crap hangings etc etc…

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Subject: Designer/Client

To be honest, the client itself (8.5.1 FP2), is pretty stable. You do need to have at least 2GB RAM on the workstation though (windows).

The designer is a different matter of course

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Subject: …

Yeah, client its pretty stable. 8.0 was a memory hog but after 8.0.2 its pretty nice. . I do feel the change for the Designer into Eclipse was unnecessary. And I will feel the same when they do it for the Admin Client. And you know they will.

Having to make things quick its what I love about the admin. If someone in IBM its reading this, please dont change the admin client. Us admins dont care about the look. Just stability and speed.

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Subject: Eclipse and xPages are all about moving away from Notes

IBM bought Lotus to get Notes because they thought it represented the future. Right idea…wrong technology. And with the Web paradigm having gained widespread acceptance, IBM was now stuck with a 3-billion dollar lemon, and no idea what to do with it. That’s why Notes has languished. Now, their plan is to turn all Notes developers into Eclipse developers.

There’s probably some system in the works to take XPage based Domino applications and automatically convert them to WebSphere apps or something like that. That’s likely the future of Notes.

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Subject: Luddite. :wink:

" It is my only platform that I have really ever developed on,"

C’mon, Richard, that pretty much says it all right there.

You were writing custom Lotusscript classes in Notes 4.5. Are you telling me that the new LS editor in 8.5.1 is anything less than a godsend?

Spend a month or so on a project team writing in Java and coordinating with SVN, and you’ll get why Eclipse brings such tremendous value.

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Subject: How will that help?

Hey Nathan, nice to hear from you. Yeah that’s me, the foot-dragger. I still run Windows 98 (kidding).

So your advice for dealing with the problems is to add another layer of complexity? I think you’ve been main-lining that firehose, man. I think maybe you have always been a futurist. One who can easily digest violent change. We need people like you. But we need people like me too; the guy that is trying to still eat the donut before you change flavors already.

Here is the deal. The car won’t turn left like it used to. Sometimes it goes right, and sputters. The brakes are intermittantly faulty. The rear-view mirror sometimes tells me that there is not a Mack truck behind me, when there really is. So your answer is that I should spend a month learning how to steer with a joystick and forget the wheel? That I should just accept that wreckless driving caused by malfunctions is the new standard?

I respect your knowledge of this stuff and your skills and vision. So, I will google what you just said. But, I know there was still lots of lead left in my R5 pencil. So many possibilities to create with confidence. Yeah, that’s right, I skipped 6 and 7. What did I miss? Yall replaced it anyway. lol. Heck, I stil have clients using 4.6 for some apps (their choice not mine).

I have tried this Eclipse-based beast for only a year or so now, and I finally exceeded my pain tolerance and wanted to express it. I love Notes or I would not be jacking with this stuff. I actually write code because I love it, not because I get paid to do it. I would do it for free (just kidding, Mr. Customer). But it ain’t fun when it ain’t working.

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Subject: Quoting David Wheeler

“So your advice for dealing with the problems is to add another layer of complexity?”

“All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of indirection”

“But we need people like me too…”

Richard, your remark was that Designer 8.5.1 is overengineered and too complex, but that Designer is really the only tool you’ve ever worked in. So my point is: if you’ve never used another IDE, then you might be missing the point of some of the benefits that Eclipse brings to the table. For instance, because Lotusscript source code is now surfaced in the native Eclipse editor, it gets the benefits of Eclipse’s code editing capabilities. This includes dramatically better problem identification, hover help, templating, dependency awareness, and even simply pressing F3 to go to a declaration.

You don’t have to write a single Xpage, and your Lotusscript experience should be massively improved.

Are there bugs? Sure. Do they outweigh the benefits? That’s subjective. But it’s not like you didn’t GET benefits. You got massive improvements in being able to be a productive Lotusscript coder. (And I know you’re one of those.)

“The car won’t turn left like it used to. Sometimes it goes right, and sputters. The brakes are intermittantly faulty. The rear-view mirror sometimes tells me that there is not a Mack truck behind me, when there really is.”

Okay, but it also runs for 5000 miles on a cup of petrol, drives itself like KITT from Knight Rider, and is perfect for cruising for chicks in Miami. So there are trade-offs.

“So your answer is that I should spend a month learning how to steer with a joystick and forget the wheel?”

My answer it that there are material benefits in the new version. Whether they are worth the bugs is subjective, but Eclipse brought TONS of new capabilities to the table. They didn’t just implement it because Maureen didn’t have anything better to do.

“That I should just accept that wreckless driving caused by malfunctions is the new standard?”

Putting aside that many of the issues you mentioned have nothing to do with Designer, and therefore nothing to do with the Eclipse extensions to it, I’m saying that robot cars might take a couple of revisions before they stop having fender-benders. And yeah, I’ve lived through quite a number of them myself.

“I have tried this Eclipse-based beast for only a year or so now, and I finally exceeded my pain tolerance and wanted to express it.”

I am really mystified that you aren’t overjoyed with the LS editor. Maybe all your code is in Agents and Forms instead of Script Libraries, so you aren’t seeing the new editor?

“But it ain’t fun when it ain’t working.”

I’ve got a team of 8 full-time devs who would beg to differ with that characterization of Designer itself.

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Subject: I declare…

I can find the declarations with one click. Why do I need to push F3 (thanks for the tip, btw)? Again, its the joystick verses the wheel.

I write most of my code in Libraries, in classes. I love objects. And I tried the new IDE and saw the cool things ditched it and am still using the old interface inside 8.51. But I don’t need hover help, dependency whatevers. lol. Seriously, I dont like things trying to wipe my butt for me. That is why I dont like Apple computers (or big goverment, but we are NOT going there).

It is funny, I love to create code that automates processes, but I dont much like the coding process automating me. Hmmm… Maybe I have issues…

Maybe I should not have griped. I had just had had enough mystery and guesswork and reboots. I have a stable machine. I can just do way more with R5 a lot faster. So the automation you mention is like 1 step forward and 2 steps back for me.

Now, if I were like you and was into writing cutting edge, inter-galactic Java code for NASA to bend light using Script libraries etc… then I might need the extra gizmos. Like I said you are the future dude.

Thanks for sharing the flipside of this coin. I love opinions.

Take care - Richard

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Subject: huh?

"I can find the declarations with one click. Why do I need to push F3 (thanks for the tip, btw)? Again, its the joystick verses the wheel. "

Ummm… do you write everything in one giant library? Surely the idea that you can click on a method in your class and go to that declaration IN ANOTHER LIBRARY is helpful. I know it had a huge impact on my productivity.

Plus it means that using best practices like specifying string literals as constants no longer kick you in the teeth, because a hover over the constant will gasp SHOW YOU THE LITERAL VALUE.

"It is funny, I love to create code that automates processes, but I dont much like the coding process automating me. Hmmm… Maybe I have issues… "

Not even error handling? You can enforce OpenLog handling on all your routines, y’know. OpenNTF.org - The Open Source Community for Collaboration Solutions

Or comment blocks? Do you realize you could setup comment templates that adhere to the Java doc standards, and then run your NSF through Lotusscript.doc http://blog.lsdoc.org/ and have a fully-documented API?

“Maybe I should not have griped.”

Gripe all you want. I’ll be the first to agree that if you’re not using the new productivity features, then it probably seems like a lot of extra infrastructure for no reason. But they ARE productivity enhancers, so maybe you should try them out.

“I have a stable machine. I can just do way more with R5 a lot faster. So the automation you mention is like 1 step forward and 2 steps back for me.”

I spent a LOT of time writing and maintaining Lotusscript classes in one giant Declarations box, Richard. At least a decade. And I’ll tell you, I wouldn’t go back to the old editor for anything. I’d lay down in traffic first.

“then I might need the extra gizmos. Like I said you are the future dude.”

Proper automated error handling and comment-driven documentation don’t seem like ‘extra gizmos’ to me, but I guess if they are, you should just install 8.0.2 and stick with it.

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Subject: You should have been a pro debater!

You sure know how to rebut! :slight_smile:

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Subject: I’m unhappy

I was a happy Notes developer since 1994. I have become quite unhappy. No one is going to make me happy by jamming something I don’t want down my throat, trying to convince me that I really am (or should be) happy, or by insulting me.

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Subject: Don’t worry be unhappy

Maybe you are happy being unhappy. 16 years is a long time to be discontent.

I was just saying that Nathan has a rare knack (and energy) for line by line rebuttals. He would make a great attorney or debate team person (or sales person).

I never said I agreed with all his points, and I didnt realize he was trying to ram anything down your throat.