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I have four versions of Notes installed on my development system, because I have to maintain applications running on four versions of the server, so I load the appropriate version of Designer for the application. I’ve found that while Lotus does excel at backward compatibility, nothing is more compatible than the correct version of Designer. I’ve been doing this for over ten years now.- Enter R8.5, just installed last week. It MUST be run using notes.exe, not nlnotes.exe. If I use the latter it complains that I’m running the “basic” version and Designer cannot be loaded. If I use the former it won’t run in concert with other versions. One MUST use NLNOTES to run multiple simultaneous clients.
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This means R8 is essentially useless. I’m in the middle of lots of enhancements to an R6 application and I want to start new work in R8. But I can only run R8 BY ITSELF because it forces me to use notes.exe to run it. That means the 8-12 Notes windows I have open all day long must all be closed, then R8 loaded, and none of those other applications will be available unless I put SO many tabs across my workspace that it’s impossible to read them all.
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Additionally, I have multiple instances of the same client version configured, so while I’m working on that R6 application I can have one ID running Designer and multiple other IDs testing the changes with different ACL settings. This is a PHENOMENAL capability that R8 simply tosses aside without apparent care. Because it MUST run as notes.exe to load Designer it also prevents itself from working correctly as multiple instances.
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This is a bug. It’s been available functionality for OVER TEN YEARS, and now it’s casually tossed aside. It may not be a coding bug, but it’s a bug none-the-less, and one that’s only slightly less serious than omitting a debugger from Designer. I WAS looking forward to finally migrating from the stone age of R6, but I find it very difficult to find interest in an “upgrade” that lacks capability so utterly basic.
Subject: Most companies would not see it as a bug if something that was never supported, goes away.
VMWare is your friend. - And, once 8.5.1 is available, and we hopefully have all those editors they showed at Lotusphere, it is worth it for most everyone to go there.
Subject: Wowzers!
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Open in a new window has been in the system for at least twelve years and it’s not been a supported feature the entire time? Wowzers. I have to wonder else I use every time I launch Notes is “unsupported”. I think it behooves me to find out. Is there a list of these “unsupported” features somewhere? Or do I have to search the KB for every single feature in Notes to see if it’s supported? I for one would dearly love to have a list of things that might vanish without warning.
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I agree VM is a workround, but it shouldn’t suddenly be the only solution. Nlnotes is simple, quick, and effective, and it has been for over a decade. I have run as many as seven applications and three instances of Designer in the same Notes version, in addition to a full Domino server, Eclipse, and a handful of other applications. I doubt my machine will even run eight separate VMs. So it’s a heinously inefficient workaround with a heavy up-front cost (compared to nlnotes) and a huge per-instance resource cost (compared to nlnotes). Hardly a desirable solution to have shoved at me without recourse.
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One of the real strengths of Lotus, in my mind, is how flexible their systems are. I can open new instances with different IDs at the drop of a hat with the tiniest resource penalty. If I’m in the middle of some huge development effort and someone calls with a fire I don’t even have to bother to close all my sessions. I merely add more … open more windows … open another Designer … fix the fire … then where I was is still sitting there waiting precisely where I left it. I can minimize the windows I’m not currently using so they aren’t cluttering up the firefight, if they even are cluttering it up.
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I’ve done this “just open more windows” thing up to three levels deep (one development session and three levels of “fire” added one right after the other) for over thirty windows open at once (only about 18 Notes & Designer across all of R5, R6, & R7 … simultaneously).
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Nlnotes is refreshingly simple and elegant. I find it more than a little disheartening that elegance appears to have been so casually tossed aside.
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BUT … Thanks for the info!..
Subject: I am entirely with you on the wish for running multiple clients.
Actually I did support requests to get this as a supported thing - why? - I want not only workarounds to get parallel things started, I want all of them working with their own Settings in registry (or even better without needing one at all ). - e.g. doing an upgrade driven from the server, I would like to see a way to distribute a new version to a client without destroying the old one but just hiding it, to have a rollback option, and it is probably not just me.
To do the long story short, at the key point, I am with you, but still, I stand to my other post. If you are not carefully on how you do argue when posting, you have to live with a high risk that your posts are simply ignored. This is my experience after 15 years in this business …
Subject: follow up
I discussed it here with the support guy. He has every flavour of Server not client. :-/ Has the same issue trying to test so uses VMWare for clients.
Subject: Use multiple clients daily - I am bummed
I recently upgraded to v8.5.2 on the client (from 7.0.4) and am struggling to get multiple instances to run (One for my “User” stuff and one for my “Admin/Designer” stuff). Used to be able to copy the program folder, edit the Notes.ini, and just run nlnotes… now, that has all changed.
However, by editing properties files and xmls, etc. (in addition to, and in the same way I used to modify the notes.ini file) I have been able to get the same “multiple client” setup using v8.5.2 working on one of my systems, but the same method seems to be failing to work on my other system.
Still hacking away on it, but this is a major issue for me. And, NO, I’m not running a separate VM just to have a separate Notes instance, gimme a break…
Just venting and piling on…
Subject: multiple clients is an unsupported configuration.
Hi David,
Using multiple clients on the same machine is an unsupported configuration.
What is meant by that is that it may work fine but any issues arising from it would not be fixed by development. If you find an issue that is later reproducible on a standalone client that would be looked into by support.
There are issues installing multiple clients to the same machine, even in earlier versions (for example COM would be impacted).
Having said that there is a support guy who sits near me who has every flavour of Notes/Domino installed onto the one box (6.5.6 to 8.x, for quick testing). Not sure if he has 8/8.5 clients on it as well but I can check for you. If he has I will see what has in the way of documentation on it.
With regards to a VM solution. You could just have your ND8 on the VMWare and the rest on the machine. Or if ND8 is the main one then have the others on the VMWare and ND8 outside.
One thing I have done on the Mac is use Confluence mode on multiple VMs (using parallels). That way I can have multiple client/server versions running without having to switch from VM window to VM window. Still you have the same issues you discussed with regards to overhead that way and I am not sure offhand if VM software for windows has that same feature.
Subject: Coherence not Confluence.
Correction regarding the mac VMWare bit.
A quick google VMWare have Unity, but may also only be for the mac.
Subject: I (now) know it’s unsupported…
Hi Simon,
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My point was that multiple clients is an serious time-saver, and it would never, ever occur to me that Lotus would consider this incredible ability “unsupported”, or even if they did, that they would simply chuck it out so casually, like some trivial nothing.
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I would also still like to know what else is “unsupported”. I could care less if development will fix it, I couldn’t care more if something else I find essential to my daily use of the product is going to arbitrarily vanish, forcing me to find some kludge to attempt to regain the utility that was lost.
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I did wind up installing R8.5 on VirtualBox, and it works well enough, except that it consumes a ludicrous quantity of system resources for “equivalent” functionality, no VM is as responsive as a non-VM, and I still can NOT run more than one R8 client at the same time, unless I incur equally ludicrous penalties for each and every instance. I didn’t expect I’d have to buy an eight core system with 16Gigs of RAM and multi-thousand dollar high-performance RAID array to retain functionality I’ve had for a decade, all because I’m using an “improved” Notes version.
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I don’t know what “Coherence” is, but it sounds like it’s the same as “Extensions” in VirtualBox. That makes the VM window function seamlessly with the host OS, so interacting with it is as simple and easy as interacting with any other window on the system. Right useful, that. Sort of like multiple clients - not necessary but omg does one miss it!
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I actually run only one server version. My experience has been that the version of Designer used to build an application is significantly more important that the server it’s running on. So I have R8 as my server and use that with all Designer versions. I only just put in R8 server, but up to R7 I’ve had zero problems using the “correct Designer, most recent server” model. We’ll see if R8.5 allows me to continue in that vein or if I also have to keep two server installs lying around, but I’m willing to assume the best in that regard.
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Apparently I haven’t used COM, or I haven’t experienced any impact from it. I have multiple instances of R5, 6, & 7 installed and have never had the slightest issue with any of them, including LS code that uses M$ COM objects to create documents on-the-fly, even when multiple clients are active. It’s only when I loaded R8.5 that everything gets utterly bollixed.
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So I would still like to see this “unsupported feature” return. ASAP. The workaround is, like all workarounds, signficantly less desirable than the original solution.
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Thanks for your time…