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Subject: Welcome back, Jon
"So here we are, at the end of 2005, with R7 out now for almost 3 months … and the market momentum towards O/E continues, unabated … "
Please, Jon – the melodramatics didn’t work for you the last time you posted a rant on this forum, remember? I can provide a link reminder if needed.
You raise a few interesting points, but I think the responses have been solid. Some good suggestions from the peanut gallery, thanks guys.
And lest anyone assume that I’ve got a happy-world set of blinders, I am acutely aware of the need to move beyond the Domino vs. Exchange “mail and calendar” discussion. Luke’s points (which he indeed made on my blog) are filtering their way into the sales education we’re conducting for IBMers in January, as a starting point for '06.
The inclusion of Notes/Domino in the Workplace product family, and meshing/integration of technologies where it makes sense, means that “Notes” applications in the future won’t just be about Domino. “Hannover” will be a defining release in terms of “composite” applications, that unify just about any Web Services at the desktop. So WebSphere and Java are important technologies for that, but so is Eclipse, WSRP, etc. Lots of places to expand and evolve skills while continuing to build great Notes apps, as many of my customers (old and new) are doing today.
–Ed / IBM Lotus
Subject: a long, difficult road ahead …
Jon, I think it’s safe to say that if you lock yourself into knowing just one platform – regardless of whether or not it’s Domino – you are dead-ending yourself.
To truly excel in the field you’ve got to know a multitude of technologies, be able to learn new ones, and have a solid foundation of engineering and/or programming skills. I doubt you’ll find many jobs for simply “Apache”, or simply “MySQL”. Rather, people want somebody who knows both.
I wrote a web-enabled project management and tracking database in Domino last Friday night in about an hour that would have taken a J2EE-related approach 3-4 times that. Did I need to know an SQL database to do it? No. Do I know SQL databases? Yes, and I’m familiar with several different RDBMS platforms. So why Domino? Because it was the best tool for the job. Heck, I could’ve done it in all HTML & Javascript, but I’d have been there all weekend and still not be able to offer nice and easy access via the Notes Client.
The true beauty with this is that Domino doesn’t limit my integration. If I need my database to start integrating with RDBMS data, guess what? There’s something like 5 different ways to do that in Domino fairly easily. I might need to provide it as a web service… oh wait, also easy in Domino. XML? C++? Call some external DLL? Work with some older technologies, like LDAP or plain-old e-mail? No problem.
If I didn’t know how to do all of those things, or how those technologies worked, I’d be very limited. I might do something stupid like pump my data to CSV files and then call a shell command to push it into the RDBMS, or even worse – say it can’t be done.
Domino could disappear overnight and what of our knowledge would be obsolete? @Formulas? Notes backend classes? Domino-specific ACL setups? Adminp? There’s still plenty of carryover.
In any professional industry one has to take the time to educate oneself on various tools and technologies as they emerge, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t value in the technologies that have been around for awhile.
Subject: *Very well put.
Subject: LOL
Subject: Yeah Ed, I noticed too. 
Re: LOL
Subject: I don’t agree with much that you say
I don’t think the marketplace is that bad, but I don’t know your local conditions. Outlook/Exchange isn’t a platform it is just a commodity email server with a market share which could plumet at any moment. There is no unique feature tying people to Exchange over Thunderbird+whatever mail server you want.Given that you want to diversify your skills (I do too, because I like playing with new toys) why on earth do you think Websphere is the only path or even a logical path? Take a look at Joomla (like Quickplace but better, it is a development platform too) or maybe skill up on OpenOffice.Org (training, migrations, integration) or core Linux networking and Samba for file+print services. If you want to do transactional web based systems in the Websphere space then there is Apache with Tomcat. Open Source/Free software is the growth market sector, the services marketplace around Microsoft is saturated and not growing. Notes is still strong because it is good technology and a good development platform.
cheer up.
Subject: RE: I don’t agree with much that you say
It seems to be the only message Jon has to give, though. (It is difficult to tell, since he has edited the content out of all of his previous postings, but one can still read the threads surrounding his previous postings, including Nathan Freeman’s point-by-point responses.) Some folks appear to enjoy this sort of thing.
Subject: so Jon Kernodle is a troll
last time I took an interest in this forum the trolls hadn’t arrived really. I wonder why he deletes his posts, that isn’t the actions of a normal person trying to make a legitimate point. Maybe he is posting under his real name and is hiding from Google. Oh well, for the benefit of future recruiters researching Jon Kernodle, here is what he said:
Well, I’ve finally made the plunge from Notes/Domino to WebSphere … and wishing that I didn’t have to, but knowing that I do …
All we have to do to know why its no longer a choice, is to go to http://www.justnotesjobs.com and see why even at that website, most of the jobs are NOT just notes!
Not only that, but go to DICE → http://www.dice.com … search on Lotus then search on WebSphere … the Websphere jobs are now three times as many …
We all know now, that with Outlook shipping with Office for close to 5 years now, (a product that has 95% market share) the writing is on the wall … Mr Gates wants it all, and despite fines, court orders and antitrust lawsuits, he’s getting it all …
We understand what IBM is doing with Workplace and Portal and Portalizing Domino Apps into Portal etc etc … Outlook/Exchange has the momentum in the marketplace, and we have to change the subject … But it seems like, at the moment, we’re stuck between the past and the future …
I’ve been in touch with close to 100 technical recruiters over the course of the past year, and there does not yet seem to be any momentun in the “Lotus software integration into Websphere” market … it may be coming, but it’s not here yet …
Nor is there any momentum yet in the “Workplace” market. Go ahead and search on Monster, or Careerbuilder or Dice … you won’t find any jobs for “IBM Workplace Administrator” …
Yet when there are jobs for “Domino Administrators” or “Notes application developers” we know that that hiring manager is going to be deluged with resumes … and that it will require an inside track to get that position …
So here we are, at the end of 2005, with R7 out now for almost 3 months … and the market momentum towards O/E continues, unabated …
Whining about Lotus software marketing is the favorite pastime for CLPs, but it does no good to post complaints here … I’m wondering, what’s the approach other CLPs have taken … I had a great job as a Domino Admin/Notes developer a few years ago, but I had to leave it because the pay sucked …
What are your experiences? Are you embracing WebSphere yet? Be ready to learn a completely new language … Because WebSphere is not Lotus … J2EE is a bizarre world of war files, ear files, and java complexity that will be completely foreign to the average Notes geek out there …
But we gotta do it … the writing is on the wall … and what’s written there is not a job opening for a Notes geek.
Subject: not exactly a troll
I am not sure why Jon Kernodle has been as negative as he has, or why he has deleted the contents of his posts, but his profile lists his company and phone number and business address, so at least he stands by some of it. I am guessing the guess about Google is most accurate.
And by the way, Jon, I don’t agree with almost anything you say about the state of the market, but it is certainly understandable that you would try to learn new technologies if you feel that the current ones are going down in the market. Good luck in your search, and I hope Websphere suits you better. Just be careful not to become the ever unsatisfied grumbler, no matter what technology you have found. It also might help to not use your own name on a public forum if you are going to talk about “100 technical recruiters” and you still appear to have a job with a reputable company. They might get annoyed.
Subject: ok, maybe that was a bit harsh
I don’t really object to the post here, but if it is being reposted repeatedly in a copy and paste way then that is trolling. Maybe the other posts were all individually hand crafted and relevant to the threads they were in, but I can’t tell because they have been deleted.
Subject: RE: not exactly a troll
I own my fair share of some postings which tends to the destructive. If you don’t have as much to say like Hani Suleiman or Rod Johnson, simply don’t get too harsh. Also I see a bigger interest in working with “new” stuff, in our local (german) notes forum. And its interesting. Very interesting what they do.
Perhaps its just my personal madness, but I had the impression that the anouncement that nsf would run on j2ee-workplace put people in passivity mode: IBM will care for us.
Now people have started to work with eclipse-rcp, webservices, java/j2EE for themselves, which is much better for any stakeholder.
Heck. Even smart oldschoolers like the !!help!!! developers aparently seriously start to seriously webspere-enable their successfull openSource app.
This is a n.e.w.s forum. People come here to hear about n.e.w. stuff. And I think we allready all know those fears/aggressions. This is o.l.d. stuff. Better post some constructive things how you stay in market in a world where a lot of “our” ex-colonies are catching up 550 years after the Portuguese managed to pass Cabo Bojador. Its difficult for a lot of people. Not only for programmers.
anyway, I like Jon. All the best.
Axel
Subject: RE: not exactly a troll
Um, no, this is NOT a news forum. It’s primarily a user-to-user help forum. Always has been. Very little of what happens here comes under the category “Announcement”, and then it’s almost always in the context of third-party tools. (IBM’s announcements in here are almost always of the “server will be down on Saturday” type.) People who come here for news are, quite frankly, wasting their time. As are people who throw their entire learning effort behind any single technology (like J2EE). That’s putting too much money on one number at the roulette table.
Subject: RE: not exactly a troll
quote:Stan Rogers: As are people who throw their entire learning effort behind any single technology (like J2EE). That’s putting too much money on one number at the roulette table.
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I don’t agree with this argument:
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You’ll learn solid object oriented principles along the way.
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You’ll learn Relational Databases. Big part of the more complicated parts of J2EE are about bridging object relational missmatch. I work with DB2, Posgres and hsqldb on a regular basis.
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You’ll learn xml/webservices.
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Actually a lot of the features introduced in the newer releases in Domino have a counterpart in Java, which is suprisingly similar (@sort function is a lot like Comparable interface, Streams, the xml stuff & Webservices stuff).
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You’ll learn lots of usefull stuff about project and test automation (and quality management in general).
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the learning curve to .net is quite flat (if you like or have to).
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If you know 2 natural languages its much easier to learn 3rd or 4th natural language. Same with IT platforms.
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a very good debate about agile project management, which outcomes gives me guidance me in the notes projects, too.
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very innovative IDEs, which allways have motivated me to work smarter.
Axel
Subject: RE: not exactly a troll
#1 has merit, but is not specific to Java and won’t help with procedural programming or low-level bit-twiddling. Remember that stuff? Your next job may depend on it.
#2 isn’t necessarily true – you can spend years developing in J2EE without ever touching the database level, since that can be abstracted away from you before you get there. If you want to learn relational databases, learn relational databases. You know – how they should be structured, normalization, referential integrity, that sort of thing.
#3 again, isn’t necessarily so. J2EE does not imply SOA or the use of XML anywhere. If you want to learn web services, then learn web services. If you want to learn XML/XSL:FO/XSLT, then learn that. It’s all accessible from Java, but it isn’t part of it.
#4 – well, @Sort’s a lot more like the arraysort operator in APL than it is to the Comparable (or IComparable in .NET) interface (which, by the way, does NOT sort – it’s merely a contract to guarantee that there will be a way to extract a sortable value from an object). But how does the existence of @Sort make J2EE a good basket to put all of one’s eggs into? Did you put any thought into that statement at all?
#5 – I’ll give you this one.
#6 – spoken like someone who has not worked in depth on both platforms. Basic language syntax similarities aside (C# and J# compared to Java), J2EE and .NET are worlds apart. Why? Because the namespaces/packages are different, and knowing what useful classes live where is ninety percent of being a productive coder on either platform. It’s a lot more than remembering to use semicolons and curly braces.
#7 – and putting all of your eggs into the J2EE basket helps how? You said it yourself – the more languages you know, the more you can learn. So this is actually an argument against your own point that maybe you should have left off of the list.
#8 – agile versus waterfall versus whatever has nothing to do with any platform. You can choose the right or wrong project management for any project on every platform, from assembler to a working 4GL. Even in Notes.
#9 – lock into one platform, and you’re pretty much locking into one IDE. You really don’t want to be the only one running NetBeans (or JEdit) in an Eclipse shop. Another one you probably should have left off of the list.
It’s not that Java/J2EE is a bad place to go, but if it’s the only thing you do, then you’ll need to unlearn J2EE habits when (not if) you need to go elsewhere later. People who don’t at least dip their toes into other waters occasionally are planning their own “unexpected” retirement.
Subject: RE: not exactly a troll
I’m going to disagree with you on #6 – particularly with “knowing what useful classes live where is ninety percent of being a productive coder on either platform.”
Actually, I don’t disagree with the 90%. It’s the “where” that bothers me.
Knowing that useful classes exist is 89%. The where is 1%. Both frameworks are huge, and memorizing what classes are where is a misapplication of a programmer’s neural bandwidth. There are manuals and class browsers for that.
Subject: RE: not exactly a troll
You know, you’re right – THAT is much bigger than WHERE (although I might go for more of an 84/6 split rather than an 89/1 – I’ve spent a lot of time in the “it was here a minute ago” mode).
Subject: RE: not exactly a troll
I read something about that recently. Now let’s see. Where was that? It was here a minute ago! 
Subject: RE: not exactly a troll
#1: consider this as my point. Java is a great language for learning oo-principles. There is simply so much material out there. Using OO does not mean unlearn procedural programming or low level stuff. #2: you can spend years developing in J2EE without ever touching the database level.
Thats true from early ejb marketing standpoint. In reality its totally wrong. None of the different flavours of EJB does abstract RDBMS away. EJB3.0 does not even claim to do so.
#3: You need a programming language to use webservices. You can use different programming languages, but - again - for Java there is great learning material and openSource frameworks of all flavours.
#4: OK. I would have better said Collections.sort(), Arrays.sort() functions. Comparable interface is more like [Customsort] works. I don’t care much about which programming language implemented first said feature. I’ve used it first in Java. And it helped me to understand it in @functions. Same with xml-api or streams (we find them in different programming environments, I know).
#5 thank you.
#6 .NET and Java are similar especially regarding n-tier architecture. To understand n-tier makes .NET a lot easier. Learning Syntax and API is not that hard anyway.
#7 I’ve wanted to say: Using J2EE as an aditional language. This doesn’t mean that I find stupid to learn Ruby. I am playing with it (though without Rails and I don’t understand much).
#8 Again: You find a lot of good debates about methodology in Java/J2EE books and forums.
#9 Netbeans and Eclipse are so similar today. If know Eclipse well, its easy to switch (or vice versa). I am using both.
I’ve never said that its good idea to use Java/J2EE as the only language. Taking me as an example I am using LotusScript, Formula language and am playing with .NET and Ruby.
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