I have been working with lotus notes domino for 12 years (notes is 20 years old).
I have been working with the Domino Designer on Eclipse (DDE) for 2 months.
My conclusion after 2 months of use is that it is the worse upgrade since notes 4 that I have experienced.
Designer and Client are simply, in a word, “disappointing”.
Extremely slow, hangs and crashes so the only alternative is to reboot computer. repeatedly!
Has lots of promise, poorly done.
Performance and response to my input is painful at times.
Sometimes I have to click multiple times simply to get a click response.
I have talked to Lotus Support.
I guess it is the Toyota Syndrome.
I use the client and designer all day and the response is simply not acceptable. I am writing this after a hang and crash that I had to reboot from. And I have had numerous reboots.
Most of the issues are related tot he designer.
Subject: 8.5.1… Fresh Install
I was having similar frustrations. The biggest just being the long time it was taking to open forms, views etc.
I had upgraded to 8.5 (and .1), I completely un-installed Notes (renaming Data folder to keep any local DBs). Then did a fresh install, and it has made a HUGE difference. So, if you did not do a fresh install when going to 8.5, then I would give that a go.
Cheers
Subject: have to agree
Sorry to say, but my experience with 8.5.1 (FP1) Designer is similar as yours. Nice UI, terrific new features, a state-of the-art IDE for LotusScript (hallelujah!), but… unstable to the point that I can’t seem to work productively with it.
While it’s quite o.k. for me to put it aside and wait patiently for a more stable version, I do have a little concern: I’m afraid this is not a good start for anyone trying Designer for the first time - let’s not forget that it is now available free of charge for everyone, which is likely to attract some inquisitive newbies. (Should I say “hopefully not too many of them” ??)
P.S.
I’ve been trying it on Vista SP2 32-bit standalone (no VM). One may argue that’s not the best platform, but after all it appears to be a supported platform, according to IBM.
Subject: Designer not friendly, or even good
I read with interest the previous posts, as I am once again frustrated by the lack of responsiveness of the designer client. I code primarily in LS and it’s painful. Additionally, I’m an instructor and shudder to think of teaching my next Fundamentals class to a bunch of non-techincal people. What would have been nice would be a 2 different perspectives: one so that we could make the client look like the old version (for the people that have no interest in doing XPages) and one with all the new bells and whistles. I’m getting ready to throw the baby out with the bath water and go back to 8.0.2.
Subject: I feel your pain…
- I had quite a bit of trouble myself until I started running R8.5.x in its own VM. Nothing else is in there with it, nor will there ever be. If your system has the resources to run a VM, I would recommend giving that a go. You’re liable to be happier.
Hope this helps…
Subject: Domino Designer (Worst Upgrade?)
This discussion needs to be split into 2 parts. Honestly, how can you say that Domino Designer 8.5 is the worst upgrade? Come on… It is the most powerful, open development platform to date!
From a features standpoint, there is no comparison. The fact that I can use XPages to build a hybrid Notes/Web application is by itself a feat versus older versions of the IDE! Do you want to start using the integrated IDE in the Notes client again? …with 10 formulas?
Let’s target the real issue… it’s not the features. I actually encountered the same problem with hangs and/or slow response times when working with XPages. The issue turned out to be contention with 64-bit Vista. You did not mention the platform, 32-bit vs. 64-bit, etc… I am running 100%. It sounds like the other posting (re: virtual machine) sorted the issue using a similar method. Is your VM 32-bit and running on your original host (64-bit?)? It does not seem fair to bash the client when there could be some platform issues at play here.
Subject: Definitely the worst upgrade ever
I’m sad. I loved Domino development since around 1994. The love affair is over. This Designer update has definitely been the worst thing to ever happen in the Domino development world. What used to be easy and painless is now difficult and painful. Constant crashes. Inconsistencies all over the place (how on earth did this thing get out the door like this??) I expected better from IBM. I now shudder whenever I have to bring up the Designer, just hoping I can manage to make it do what I need it to. Chalk me up as another unhappy developer. Unfortunately I don’t see much being fixed any time soon.
And you can denigrate it by calling it “classic” or “legacy” Notes dev all you want, but my clients are still using primarily Notes client applications (utilizing lots of @formula and LotusScript) and aren’t going to change any time soon, unless it’s to some kind of hosted, outsourced web solution that has nothing to do with Notes.
Subject: I went back to the 8.0 designer
Since I’m not working in xPages, I have no reason to subject myself to this practically unusable excuse for a designer client.
Taking minutes instead of seconds to open a database in designer is just totally unacceptable.
Subject: Enough complaining
I’ve been doing a lot of complaining about the Designer lately. I still like Notes, it’s just much more painful to work with. So I’m going to devote the entire rest of this post to all the great things I love about the new Designer.
Oops.
Subject: Clarification (hopefully sans rant)…
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I run XP Pro SP3 - 32bit across the board. I’ve done Domino for only 12 years and I have never had a quarter of the trouble with an upgrade that R8.5.1 has given me. Or if I did I’ve blissfully forgotten, but I don’t consider this level of frustration to be that forgettable. Last time I remember having half this much trouble was when R5 came out. That thing crashed constantly at the start as well, especially if one tried to use multiple windows in Designer, as R4 did without the slightest hiccough.
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You are correct, of course, that the new features are seriously awesome. But Bill is also correct in that using them (for enterprise level application migration) is an insanely steep learning curve, not the simple rapid development it’s touted to be. So while it’s very nice to have all these spiffy new features, unless one is essentially willing to scrap 30,000 lines of primarily LotusScript OO with some Formula and Java, redoing the entire thing from the ground up using SSJS, XPages are actually an impediment.
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At least that’s my experience based on months of bashing my face against that exact scenario: web-enable a very complex R-prior Notes application using XPages. Had I known it was such a heinous amount of work I would have never touched an XPage. I would have done every bit of the work using “legacy” techniques and been done months ago. Instead I’m months late and don’t even have viable alpha-ware, after over 20 PMRs. But I have sooooo much time invested in this “most powerful” upgrade that it’s nearly impossible justify chucking it all to start over, now. Had I known back when I started that I’d be here now I would have scrapped every one of those 30,000 lines and started over. But days of research into XPages beforehand led me to believe they were The Cat’s Meow, quick and easy, so I pulled the trigger. I coulda swore the barrel was pointing away from my head!
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So the real issue is in two parts, and both parts have pretty darned serious negatives. DDE won’t play nice with hardly any other software (even in a fully 32-bit environment), making it phenomenally unstable unless it’s run on a “machine” by its little lonesome, and migration of enterprise level complex applications from R-prior to XPages is a ridiculously time consuming affair.
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I’m not even touching on the piles and piles and piles and piles of usability issues and outright code-mangling bugs in DDE. I’m trying to be objective here, and if I go down that road everyone will certainly roll their eyes and think “He’s at it again!”. (wry grin) Hopefully no one has gotten there with this post yet. If they have I sincerely apologize in advance, as it was my intention to relate information and experience, and nothing more.
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I do have an R8.5FP1 instance that’s not in a VM, but that instance very, very rarely loads DDE. It use it to access R8.5 applications using the Notes Client, it’s what I use to access this Forum, and it runs all day every day. So far it’s been fine as frog hair, as Dad says, even with user ID switches. (knocks on head)
But at least when R8.5.1 DDE is put in a VM by its little lonesome, it’s relatively stable, and in fact I think for the most part it is “working as designed”. Without confidence that code won’t be randomly lost, ie, stability, quite frankly nothing else is relevant…
Subject: xPages rant and possible praise
I think my biggest complaint about 8.5.1 (and specifically xPages) is the lack of documentation so far on usage. I will confess that I do not have a redbook for this release, and, to date, have not been able to find one.
There is a learning curve when it comes to xPages as it is a completely new design paradigm from what we as Domino developers are used to.
What I think would help with this issue is a set of IBM written tutorials available along with the redbook that show methodology for implementing xPages in existing applications and new applications and when and WHY we as developers would want to.
Oh, and a dojo reference would be nice as a plug-in for the designer client.
I personally do not experience a lot of client crashes with the designer in 8.5.1. Occasionally I do get eclipse perspective errors popping up, but nothing serious thus far. My only complaint is slowness, but I acknoledge that I am also running on a laptop that is about 5 years old now. I presume that a newer, more appropriate machine will alleviate this problem.
I would like to see more RAD capability in xPages, yes. How much this is possible I will know as I become more familiar with the tech (thus my desire for better tutorials). I do think that this is the future for web development with Domino, however, and I see strong possibilities with the direction.